NEWS FEEDMiyamoto The Interview Part 1
09.28.06
Miyamoto Speaks about the Wii at the Shigureden.
Translated by Xcomp
Magazine “Nintendo DREAM” celebrates its 10th anniversary by interviewing Shigeru Miyamoto, Nintendo’s Management Director and the Head of the Entertainment Analysis and Development Department. The interview takes place at the museum of Shigureden where they exhibit some old Japanese poems. We hear from Miyamoto what lead to both the DS and the Wii as well as some little bits of information about Nintendo’s games.
An Attraction for Ages 5 to 95.
- What a wonderful place this Shigureden is~
Miyamoto:
It is, isn’t it (Laughs). This place gave me some very precious experience.
[more]
- What was your role at Shigureden?
Miyamoto:
I was involved with every attraction you find within Shigureden. There’s the flying UFO on the monitor on level 1 and, the bamboo pipes and poems on level 2. I was actually planning to allow visitors to press a button so that they could be given a tour of the scenery but, the scale of such a project would have been too great so I left it out (Laughs).
- Mr Miyamoto, you yourself actually like poems don’t you?
Miyamoto:
Not really but, Nintendo is the kind of company that produces floral playing cards and poems. Also, I myself wanted to try and create such a large scale attraction too.
- I see.
Miyamoto:
Yes, and that’s why I went to Disney Land for some inspiration.
- Unlike game software, it’s more interesting to be able to see the customer’s reactions directly in a theme park, yes?
Miyamoto:
I’m interested in all forms of entertainment so I go to a lot of aquariums, art exhibitions and other things of the sort. That’s why when this whole talk about a Shiguren came up I thought to myself, "I want to try doing this…" Another reason is I had always wanted to try using the DS as an exhibit in museums or in public places. I didn’t know how we could make use of the DS in such a way at the time but whenever you go to an exhibition they let you view a CD, don’t they? So I was wondering to myself, "Maybe we can use the DS like that too." I was thinking to myself for example, maybe I can make people bring along their DS and gather together at the park to play or something. At present, Nintendo has no plans in creating any attractions but, when Mr. Yamauchi (Nintendo Advisor) heard about my idea, he suggested to me, "Why not try it at Shigureden?"
- And that’s when you thought it would be "fun"?
Miyamoto:
I said to him, "That should be fun." Mr Yamauchi himself didn’t just want to use the Shigureden to display floral playing cards to preserve our culture but, he also had plans to increase the number of people interested in poems too. It’s quite an important matter really so it was natural for hi, to consider such a thing. He then went onto talking about how it could be part of Nintendo’s business and said, "You could try it if you’re interested." I was interested and it would be good experience for our company so I replied, "I’ll do it." So with Nintendo backing up our plan, they allocated a budget so that the owners of the Shigureden would lend this place to us.
- And Nintendo sent some staff over too, didn’t they?
Miyamoto:
During the development stage, yes. I didn’t handle the entire operation alone. I had to take care of maintenance and watch over my own staff… To be more specific, I had to help watch out for bugs in our software (Laughs), that was my part in it. Then I also had to think about how we were going to modify our attraction or, how to add to it in the future. However, the Shiguren structure itself belongs to a foundation so the establishment is unrelated with Nintendo. To be precise, once we’ve delivered our goods, we’re nothing more than just the maintenance staff here.
- And that’s how we managed to get an interview with you right here (Laughs).
- (Both laughs.)
Miyamoto:
I really do want lots of people to know about the charming aspects of this place. This is a new tourist spot in Kyoto after all and it resembles Nintendo very much, a place that people aged 5 to 95 can enjoy. Recently, some children have been visiting too. The monitor on the floor projects an overhead view of Kyoto and a bird guides the guests to their destinations. Usually adults would muse and don’t know how to use such devices but while the elderly poke around the "Shigureden Navi", children will be saying “wow~” as they’re having fun watching the bird flying to places. It’s a surprising good way of entertaining small children. That was the most important idea, to make it easy to use so that it’s a place where a large crowd can enjoy themselves.
- I look forward to the next Shigureden exhibition. So lets leave it there then… (Laughs)
Miyamoto:
Yes (Laughs). We better leave it there (Laughs)
A Result of doing what He thought was Right with the DS
- Nintendo really has something amazing going at the moment.
Miyamoto:
Thank you.
- The DS is a great hit presently but, what are your thoughts on it?
Miyamoto:
I think we’ve been working hard at doing what we thought was right. I’ve been told that "doing what we thought right alone wouldn’t make a product sell" and "this world doesn’t move because of right things being done" and in reality it’s true. But I felt that if Nintendo kept a serious mind in doing what they thought was right then one day, they would be rewarded and in this case, my thoughts were right.
- You said the same thing 7 or 8 years ago. When the N64 was doing poorly and the "Ocarina of Time" became a huge hit you said, "It’s important to do what you think is good."
Miyamoto:
That’s not all. Besides doing what we think is right in the games market, which is like our very skin, we ourselves feel we are gaining support when fans tell us that something we created is fun. For example, the Mario Club (the "Super Mario Club" which is responsible for debugging and reviewing games before they are sold) helps us by reviewing a game so that we can add in something interesting for the fans. If however they tell us it’s not fun, we’ll know a way of making it fun. That’s the sort of relation that has been going on between us and the fans.
- In other words, it’s like both sides are getting along together…
Miyamoto:
Yes, we’re getting along. But if we continue to then, we will no longer realise the change in our value in the world.
- When "Pikmin" first came out, you mentioned, "You mustn’t close yourself off in the centre of the village."
Miyamoto:
The games industry is like a "big village". The centre of the village is the most active and healthy part of the games industry and by staying there, it means you can no longer see the outside world. There you’ll be pampered and be surrounded by enthusiasts. But a few years ago, I heard in society that Nintendo was losing its place from the centre… It gave us the chance to slip away and understand the game market more.
- I see. You can’t see the entire world without climbing to the peak, can you?
Miyamoto:
We’ve been calmly surveying the market and it’s not that we’re no good in the games industry anymore; it’s just that we’ve surpassed being a "village company" and in the centre of the spinning world, we’ve had a chance to think about how Nintendo should continue in its existence. It was a good opportunity and that’s when we came up with the catch phrase, "something that people aged 5 to 95 can enjoy." Of course, I can’t deny the fact that the number of people finding games too difficult to play is increasing and there’s also a lot who think that games have nothing to do with them.
- You’re right. Long ago, people would be happy when they heard, "An RPG that lasts for 50 hours" but now, they would say along the lines of, "It takes 50 hours to complete that?"
Miyamoto:
Well, about how I went to Disney Land for inspiration. This was a theme park that appeared to be an amusement, an attraction designed for young children but in actual fact, adults had just as much fun there too. Games are virtual things so they can not beat something like that which you can experience in reality. As I surveyed the visitors, I thought to myself that Nintendo itself must also give people that real life experience. We had to create something that gives you the feeling of reality. While we made games, we said to each other that "it’s important to be able to actually touch things" along with many other suggestions so we decided to create a virtual space in a package that gives you that sense of touch. But to do so, it will be necessary to create a console that gives you the feeling that it’s part of your daily life.
- So for example when "Nintendogs" came out, you said that players could place the DS on the living room table and allow the family to take a peek at it whenever they wanted to or, stroke the puppy.
Miyamoto:
Yes, that’s the sort of thing mobile phones are becoming I think, a part of daily life. That’s why we’ve been thinking about how to bring a games machine into our lives. With that in mind, we came up with the answer of the "Wii" console, something that you could leave sitting somewhere at home but before that, we came up with a more mobile solution, the DS which came at a great timing.
The Theme Behide the Wii is Hardware that you Don’t have to Fear
- The Wii inherits the good points of the DS, am I right?
Miyamoto:
Yes. They’re not completely identical but, even if they are they won’t conflict with each system and it’s very important that people know where to place them. At one time, games consoles earned a place equal to that of furniture but now, it’s becoming something that people don’t want around… The games industry hasn’t set their minds on the problem and only discuss about subjects such as "Are simulations the next trend after RPGs?", "What shall the game genre be?" or, "Who will make it?” forgetting about what the idea of entertainment is all about. So because of that, when we were developing the Wii, we gave it a lot of thought about, "How are we going to create a games console that people would like in their homes?" And with those ideas and suggestions in mind, the development of the Wii began.
- What was the reason behind giving the machine such a simple design?
Miyamoto:
We considered for a long time about making a simple controller but, there is no way to design one without complexity if it’s to satisfy the games I create. This is where there is the problem of how a great number of people won’t even touch a games console because of the complex looking controller. We then thought to ourselves, "We could always create titles that made use of a single stylus" and that’s what lead us to the decision of trying to create the DS. Now it’s receiving great success thanks to the new "touch pen generation" and the software which you can enjoy using the stylus only. When we saw this situation, we looked back at the home console and wanted to make it simple too so that anyone will want to have a go at it. Of course, we’ll have to create games that made you want to have a go too but first, we wanted to create a console that you wanted to try. Making you want to try it out was the most important point of the design.
- And you also didn’t want it to be an obstruction no matter where it was put.
Miyamoto:
Yes. Also, something that you wouldn’t be scared of when you glanced at it. The whole theme was about creating something that will make both females and other people who don’t usually play games say, "I’m not scared of this."
- Those are quite a choice of words, "I’m not scared of this." But there are people who don’t dare touch things when they see there are lots of buttons attached to it.
Miyamoto:
They don’t know what button to press so they won’t want to touch the thing at all. They don’t want to go through a manual to understand the thing. That’s basically what it’s all about. When the Famicom (NES) was made, it was the very idea we kept in mind.
The Wii Breaks the Paradigm of the Games Industry
- There’s fewer buttons now on the Wii remote now, isn’t there?
Miyamoto:
On the Famicom (NES), you made use of the ‘A’ and ‘B’ buttons simultaneously while on the Super Famicom (SNES), we added the extra ‘Y’ and ‘X’ buttons to try and simply the controls in games as much as possible. By trying to do so, we thought it would make games easier to play but, with the number of buttons increased I think we actually made it more complex. With the Wii motion sensor, players can now wave the remote around left and right and with so many other features added to it, we managed to simplify the number of buttons. But even now, there are people who still think it’s too complex (Laughs).
- Everyone knows that you can use the Wii remote with one hand but when it first debuted in last year’s Tokyo Game Show, I was surprised when Mr. Iwata (President of Nintendo) said, "It all started off when we thought through the idea of holding controllers with two hands."
Miyamoto:
Yes, we began our ideas by thinking about how we could allow anyone to play with only one hand.
- That’s great. Even though games are becoming more complex, the controllers are becoming simpler to use even when there are so many buttons like the one you mentioned earlier.
Miyamoto:
I think game designers including ourselves had reached a dead end. Because we had to create something that would suit the present environment, we weren’t sure about what to create. If we were going to get past such a hurdle, great changes had to be made to the paradigm in the industry first. We thought we would be the first to do that and see what ideas can be born from it. If we don’t keep trying such a thing, nothing new can be born. It’s similar to "experimenting inside a laboratory" but yes, it’s true we had to experiment to a certain level. After that, we found part of our answer and turning it into an actual consumer product, we thought we would try it out with the world’s game designers. I’m not trying to say the current games are unsuitable for it but, if we don’t do things this way, new ways of playing games won’t appear.
Games will change in a Decade
- It might be rude to say this but, in the February 2000 issue of Nintendo DREAM, you said, "Games would die out if the controller became one-handed." did you not, Mr. Miyamoto?
Miyamoto:
Well, someone said to me, “I want to play games with one hand” (Laughs). But you see, to be able to immerge yourself in a game and control your avatar effectively, a controller like that of the Famicom or Super Famicom is a necessity. If such games were made with one handed controls then, even those who said they want to play games with one hand will never want to play games anymore. However at present, the number of people who are interested in such one handed games are increasing. That’s why I want to try and make such people enjoy the fun in games again. So instead of designing the Wii so that it would be rejected by those who want to play with both hands, we could expand the variety of games on the console so that it caters for all and this will probably increase the number of people who will be able to play naturally with both hands too. When that happens, the complexity of the new playing style where you can move both hands freely will broaden.
- So in practice, people should be able to have fun with games that have complex controls.
Miyamoto:
Yes and because of that, we suddenly came up with the idea of the Nunchuk (Laughs). Although it seems as if the control system has evolved to a certain degree, we’ve really just gone back to our starting point with our complex controls again. In other words, the control system had already gone through a change once 10 years ago with the 3rd generation console, the N64 and this time, we’ve changed the whole console including its interface. But 10 years later from now, we’ll have to change something again because we can’t re-release the Wii as it is again.
- So in other words, there’s a 10 year cycle.
Miyamoto:
In the sense that "the more we strengthen a machine’s functions, the brighter the future will be", we just can’t go about it all without some serious thought.
The Connection between Freestyle and Dominant Hands
- How was the concept of the Nunchuk born?
Miyamoto:
Iwata suggested, "I want a game that I can play at leisure with two hands", a freestyle kind of game. So far, there are two unique controllers being sold which are Namco’s neGcon and a few other types of freestyle controllers. I too wanted to add in such an element to our controllers but, I didn’t have a clear answer to our problem. On the other hand, we managed to arrive at the Wii remote’s design by aiming for something that is both functional and simple in looks. It was then that I thought, maybe we can attach something to it that another player can make use of. In other words, we’ve been thinking about splitting the main controller into two parts but instead of doing that, we thought we could do something really great if we added an extension to the Wii remote that made use of the Wii’s motion sensor. That’s when we suddenly arrived at our answer.
- This will be a first time experience for players who are used to the firm, two handed controllers. With no experience of these new controllers, I think there will be some people who won’t feel at ease with them.
Miyamoto:
Games recommended to friends right now aren’t played because they find them too difficult. Even when they do have a little go at the games, they get confused and can’t control the games very well. When someone sees that happening they’ll say, "No no! This is how you play it!!" but they still want their friends to try it and go onto tell them not to worry about the controls (Laughs). When you recommend a game to someone, they shouldn’t be afraid of playing it (Laughs) I’ve gone through such experiences myself many times (Laughs)
- I see (Laughs)
Miyamoto:
Lately, I tried re-challenging some games by holding the controllers in opposite hands; the Nunchuk in my left hand and the remote in my right.
- You normally hold the remote in your left hand…?
Miyamoto:
Yes, I hold the remote in my left hand and the Nunchuk in my right. I’ve almost gotten used it this way.
- Isn’t it hard for you when you’re left handed?
Miyamoto:
(Looking very mischievous)… It’s very difficult.
- I see. I was thinking maybe the reversed way would be easier for left handed players to play games.
Miyamoto:
Yes, so you would think. But for those who have been used to motionless controllers such as the Famicom for 30 years, it’ll be hard to hold the controllers the other way round.
- They’re used to the old controller after all. Can you choose which hand to use with the Wii?
Miyamoto:
As long as we don’t get over the hurdle of forcing players to use opposite hands, I think only the right-handed people who have been playing games up until now will enjoy the Wii. So it’s actually more important that we sort something out first to allow players to choose which hand they want to play games with. There’s a joke about how it’s all a right-handed tyranny because even though we are left-handed, we’re forced to use the D-Pad as if we were right handed people (Laughs). The controllers weren’t really designed to suit either left or right handed people but the D-Pad just happened to be designed to be on the left hand side. It’s not about how it’s odd to use your left hand to write just because most people use their right or, how it’s odd not to use your right hand to hold your chopsticks just because everyone else does it or anything like that at all. I’m sure no one’s held controllers the wrong way round before but this time players can feel free to hold them the way they want (Laughs).
- So players can hold the remote in their left or right hand and the Nunchuk will adjust to the new setting.
Miyamoto:
Yes. So it’s going to feel the same for everyone. Any young children touching games for the first time will be able to hold the remote in their left hand while holding the Nunchuk in their right.
- That sounds interesting. But for those who are used to games will find it odd to be using the D-Pad with their right hand.
Miyamoto:
Yes, it would feel odd. You can’t play a guitar when you hold it the wrong way round after all (Laughs)
- Both laughs.
The Secret Birth of the Nunchuk and the Wii Remote Extension
- How did the controller get the name, "Nunchuk"? I don’t think this was the name being used at the beginning (Laughs).
Miyamoto:
We can still change the name (Laughs). If you think we should then just say so please (Laughs).
- Oh, no no (Laughs). I think the name’s very easy to understand.
Miyamoto:
The name "Nunchuk" received some good response overseas so we just left it as Nunchuk.
- So what lead to the name?
Miyamoto:
When we first created it as a prototype, it resembled a Nunchuk so that’s why we referred to it by that name. When we were doing business with America, they also called it the Nunchuk. Even though it started off as a codename, we later went about researching to find out if there was a trademark behind the name and we found that the name was freely used everywhere. So the name just stuck (Laughs).
- So it’s not called the "Nintendo Nunchuk" or the "Wii Nunchuk" then.
Miyamoto:
When we made it into a set with the Wii remote, we named it the "Nunchuk Style".
- I can think of many other peripherals that can be attached to the Wii remote. Will they all be called the "Nunchuk Style" too?
Miyamoto:
No no, when an analogue stick is connected to the remote, it’s called the "Nunchuk Style". And (posing as if he’s holding a gun), when you have the zapper attached to it, it’s called "Zapper Style".
- I see. There’s a lot to look forward to in the selection of the Wii remote’s extensions. Seems there’s going to be quite a lot of peripherals.
Miyamoto:
Yes. We’ve been thinking about making them wireless but with wireless devices, they use up a lot of batteries so it would be costly. Then there was the idea of creating a lot of peripherals but how well they sell will depend on the game support. That’s when we came up with the idea (snapping his fingers) of making the remote a key part of the control system while allowing extra extension peripherals. To allow for a selection of devices, we kept the controls simple on this main unit. It is why the Wii remote’s code name is "core unit" and the peripherals are called "expansion units".
- I see.
Miyamoto:
It was really a coincidence. While we were trying to simply the controls as much as possible, the idea came to us that we could attach all kind of extension devices to the pointer-like remote. That’s when our design idea was settled. If we tried attaching something to the two handed controllers we’ve had so far, it would have ended up looking like some kind of launch pad (Laughs).
- “Lauch pad” indeed (Laughs). Are you talking about the N64 controller? (Laughs)
The Long Microphone or Speaker Debate
- I was surprised that a speaker was added to the Wii remote. What was the concept behind that?
Miyamoto:
We’ve been creating a lot games with voice recognition so we debated for a long time whether to attach a mic or, a speaker that produces sounds in accordance with the game onto the controller. Doing either however, would make the controller too extravagant. After all, we were trying to simplify it (Laughs). However, amongst many of the suggestions we had, someone said that it was important for the controller to have some kind of feedback from our actions in games since we were going to be playing them wirelessly. So far, a rumble feature has been added to controllers but that itself isn’t enough so we decided to leave the controller with a speaker. Now, if we created something that could be played allowing 4 players to sit around one Wii remote… (Looks troubled) Maybe I shouldn’t have said that.
- Tell us now! (Laughs)
Miyamoto:
(Laughs). All I’ll say is the Wii remote will be used when it’s someone’s turn to "fish". That should be interesting enough.
- It sounds like playing a game where you’re passing around a bomb.
Miyamoto:
Apart from that, there will be four player games where a certain amount of information is secretly whispered to someone. During such times, it’ll be interesting to have the speaker built-in. If we didn’t think of approaching games this way, we would have added in a mic instead (Laughs).Everyone will think the holes on the controller is a mic if we just showed them a photo so we thought we would reveal what it was instead of trying to conceal it. Well, we’ve actually been keeping quiet about it until this year’s E3 (Laughs).
- There were no speaker holes on the Wii remote when you announced it last year.
Miyamoto:
To be frank, there was a time when we couldn’t attach a mic or a speaker to the remote due to the costs. But then a designer from outside our department asked us, "Aren’t you going to add a speaker to it?" Because of that, we thought it would be a shame to leave such a feature out. We thought we could at least have a speaker if we weren’t going to have a mic on it. Costs would be higher if we added a mic and because games were going to be played in front of a TV, we didn’t know where the best place to add it was. There would be times when a mic next to the TV would be best and there would be times when it’s attached to the remote would be the best. All would depend on how the games made use of the mic. On the other hand, we knew that the speaker can only sound on the remote and this was where it got interesting.
- I can just imagine how fun it will be playing with a speaker attached.
Miyamoto:
We got some mixed reaction from our staff when we used it in the office. When we first talked about the speaker, there wasn’t any reaction from them. Then at one time, we had some interesting talk about it and people got really excited. People thought of the "Beeeeen" sound when you swing a sword in Zelda and they also thought about the light sabers from "Star Wars".
- I’d like to try something like that (Laughs)
Miyamoto:
(Poses as if he’s going to swing a light saber). "Voom" (Laughs). Everyone was so excited about it but when we actually came around to adding the speaker and tried to gather ideas, no one had any idea what to do with the speaker even though they got so interested when someone else came up with an interesting way of using it (Laughs). At E3, we showed a demo of Ping Pong but it wasn’t Ping Pong we wanted to show to the audience, we wanted them to hear the "Kon Kon" sound. But it was so noisy at E3 you couldn’t really hear it (Laughs). But never mind, once Ping Pong becomes a finished product, they’ll hear the sound of the rackets going "Kon Kon". It’s important to create the right kind of sound effects.
- There has been talk about how once you get used to the controllers at E3, you can’t get back to the old controllers.
Miyamoto:
Well, that’s because once you’re used to the free style of playing with the remote and return to the old controllers, you can’t move both your hands anymore making it feel unnatural. However, I’m not trying to abandon the controllers that have been used so far. We also have a classic controller in store.
- With the Wii remote, players will be able to sit relaxed when they play the games?
Miyamoto:
Yes. For example, in a game where you have to hit drums (poses as if he’s holding two remotes) you’ll be waving both your hands to beat them (moves his hands up and down) and it’ll be completely different from pressing buttons. However, there will still be games that are best played with the old controllers. (Posing as if he’s holding one of the classic controllers) Games such as F-Zero you’ll be better off playing with the classic controller. It’ll all depend on the software.
- It’s interesting how you can hold the remote any way you like and depending on how you hold it, the gameplay will change too.
Miyamoto:
It’s going to all depend on the game designer’s ideas.
Realizing the Idea of the 64DD as Wii Connect 24
- Now about the Wii Connect 24. I do look forward to what kind of titles will be born for it.
Miyamoto:
Compared to the internet, I think there’s a certain different kind of fun in using the DS link to create a dedicated connection to play games and meet others. At present, games on the internet are mainly played via computers. Lately, internet browsing has made it into TVs too and it’s becoming more and more a part of consumer electronics but, it’s still not very common yet. However, it’s having it accessible in such an environment that people manage to find how fun the internet is and it’s a new experience for them. Iwata too is also very positive about the internet. But there are also those who think a DS is enough for them. That’s where we have to add some form of attraction to the home console. The beauty of Wii Connect 24 is that you can be connected 24 hours with a minimum of power and thus, be able to view a wide variety of changes as they happen. And it’s fun to find that once you turn on the Wii, you’ll be looking at how the software contents have been changed.
- That was exactly what the 64DD was attempting at, wasn’t it?
Miyamoto:
Yes. The 64DD sold 15,000 units and it ended up with a very small number of users but, I think the technology used back then has finally spread throughout the world today. That’s why I think the "Doubutsu no Mori (Animal Crossing)" project we started back for the 64DD will finally reach its final form on the Wii.
- "Animal Crossing" is a game that was originally designed for the internet I see. With that in mind, you must be glad you decided to create the content for the 64DD.
Miyamoto:
I’m glad I worked on the project for such a long time (Laughs).
- Of course, we think so too (Laughs)
Miyamoto:
There were many difficulties we ran into such as administration and maintenance.
- And the timing was a problem too, I see. But even though it couldn’t be fully developed back then, the project can live on now.
Miyamoto:
Take "Kokeshi" (limbless wooden dolls) for example, those go with the times too. The portrait models (Mii) used in "Wii Sports" actually came from "Manebito Camera" (a title that was made for the GC but debuted as "Stage Debut" demo at the 2003 E3 show. The concept of the software came from 64DD’s "Mario Artist Talent Studio"). We’ve been making this kind of thing since a long time back.
- Ah, I knew those Kokoshis had a 64DD feeling to them (Laughs).
